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Worried about Checkmate - see comments

safetynut

safetynut

Member
Hey fellas,

Well, after much anticipation I just returned from the Richmond, VA boat show and saw the new ZT230 on display. I could not believe that the local boat dealer brought a beautiful new ZT230 equipped with a small 350 I/O and an Alpha drive. When i asked a few questions about the new boat the representative didn't know much about it and didn't impress us as someone we would want to hand over the $50,000 sticker price for the boat.

I'm sorry, but in my opinion you bring your "A" game to the boat show - or stay home. Setting up a new ZT230 with a 350 and an Alpha drive would be like bringing a new Corvette to the Auto Show with a V-6 in it and cloth seats...

Checkmate needs to really get the marketing in high gear. Get some clothing and sports gear on the website for the loyal customers. Get some marketing and promotional stuff out to the dealer network, and most of all give these guys some guidance on how to market the new product.

Don't get me wrong - I LOVE MY CHECKMATE. That's why I'm so dissapointed after seeing the boat show and the Checkmate parked behind some other boats with only a single 3'x3' faded banner on the wall. I almost walked right past it and I was looking specifically for Checkmate.

I hope they get it in gear quick - if not Checkmate may be in trouble soon.
 
Not bad-mouthing Checkmate...

Don't get me wrong - I'm not bad-mouthing Checkmate. I just want to see the Company compete STRONGLY with other high-performance contenders like Fountain, Eliminator, and Velocity.

:surf:
 
Sorry, but Checkmate is never going to compete strongly with manufacturers like Fountain or Eliminator. Why? Have you priced out a new 29 Fever compared to a new ZT 280? And I don't know if you've ever been to north central Ohio but the Checkmate factory in Bucyrus is a far cry from the 250,000 sq ft. technological marvel on the North Carolina coast where Fountain builds their boats.
As far as the boat and knowledge the local dealer had, thats more of the dealer's responsibility to order an impressive over-the-top boat to show off and take the time to study up and be able to answer questions and set up an impressive display.
I will agree with you on the clothing and sports gear. I would like to see some more offerings.
But give Checkmate some credit, you don't stay in this business for over 40 years if you don't know a little something.
 
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My thoughts I think Checmate should stay with the size boats they have. I consider them good lake runners. But I think the new dealers should carry at least 1 25-30 Convincor or ZT to let people know that they exist. I think the 25 to 30 footers would really sell in my area because the lake is so rough.
 
Two Schools of Thought

I guess it really boils down to what you are doing with your Checkmate.

I know alot of the members of this site are running Checkmates for ski-boats and some race them. Others have taken their Checkmates to the extreme and frequently outrun Fountain, Velocity, Baja, etc...

I guess I was looking at it from the standpoint of the bigger checkmates and larger engine packages. Checkmate CAN and DOES compete when it comes to performance.

I just want to see the Company be diverse enough to continue to produce the quality "lake boats" but also be able to put something in the Poker runs or informal races that can place near the top or WIN.

Checkmate does deserve credit for the 40 year history - it's time to forge the next 40 years legacy and I think high-performance boats as well as "lake boats" needs to be a focus in marketing and design. I am very proud of Checkmate and Love the product line. I just want to see the Company edge into some of the other high-performance contenders. Oh and (you don't need 250,000 sq.ft. technology marvel facility - to compete) Checkmate has already outperformed Companies that have impressive facilities.:cheers
 
I think at the time, an Alpha was the biggest that came in the boat.(I asked that myself, "You don't sell this with a Bravo?") I think that has changed since then. I agree with their logic that the 5.7 at the top speed in that boat ain't going to hurt the Alpha, but I also see that people see the Alpha and think, "This is going to break, I need a Bravo."


The salesman, not knowing much about the boats. Is absolutly not excusable, but Checkmate can't change a salesmans attitude, and to some extent, by them most likely being an independed contractor, and on commision, niether can the dealer.


I get to talk to a lot of dealers, and many of them know their boats. But face it, not every salesman out there is going to know these Checkmates, a third as well as many of us on this board. With all the boat lines out there, many salespeople will only know what has been told to them at the dealership, or what they read in the brochures, OR really only whats shown in the dealer books. Which would be, the options, the colors, the motors, etc.

The problem is more widespread than you might think, and not a Checkmate specific problem. It goes across the board, to almost every type of boat. There will be good salespeople, and so-so salespeople.
 
THe best school for salespeole is to take them to the factory and show them how its made etc..It might be costly to the dealer,but rewarding after..Some factory will split costs w/dealer..This frequantly done in other fields..My self i have visited lots of mfg in the US and Canada..
Best product knowledge i ever had.. :)
 
dfarina said:
Sorry, but Checkmate is never going to compete strongly with manufacturers like Fountain or Eliminator. Why? Have you priced out a new 29 Fever compared to a new ZT 280? And I don't know if you've ever been to north central Ohio but the Checkmate factory in Bucyrus is a far cry from the 250,000 sq ft. technological marvel on the North Carolina coast where Fountain builds their boats.
As far as the boat and knowledge the local dealer had, thats more of the dealer's responsibility to order an impressive over-the-top boat to show off and take the time to study up and be able to answer questions and set up an impressive display.
I will agree with you on the clothing and sports gear. I would like to see some more offerings.
But give Checkmate some credit, you don't stay in this business for over 40 years if you don't know a little something.
Click to expand...

So.....the 29 Fever is going for less then a ZT280 nowdays???? Did not know that. My local dealer has a ZT280 with 496HO for $99,000, they had it on sale a few weeks ago for 94,900....I thought that was a little high since they had 275 Bajas sitting next to it for 74,900....


Re: the 350, that's a real nice motor for a ZT230....It's gonna run right along side the ZT280 with 496HO....about 63-65mph....I'd rather have the Bravo drive, though.

-Craig
 
On the salespeople at boat shows thing, I work with several dealers in my area, and for shows a lot of dealers use friends and customers as salespeople at boat shows, I know I have done it for them, so if you get someone who seems not to know much, this can be the reason, now some fill in guys are very good and do know the product and some even have them, just a toss of the dice...on the marketing thing, I think you will see that change with the new owner in place, my concern is going to be the quality of the boat, only time will tell, Rob
 
I guess we all need to give it a little time. At least one good thing some Checkmates made it to boat shows this year. The top 12 boats I seen on Lake Norman 2007 Poker run was at least 40 footer cats with 2-3 blown big blocks.
 
Everyone's got a pretty valid point. As for a Baja being priced below a Checkmate? What do you want, price or performance? Just for example, I personally ran a 26 Outlaw at the Baja dealer meetine in October. The boat was equipped with a 525 (which is something that almost NOBODY will ever order in that boat). The best I got out of it was 74 and some change. Put a stock 496H.O. in a ZT260, and you can run right next to the Baja. And you'll be doing it for 20K less money. Now, take a 26 Outlaw with a 496H.O. (the way they sell everywhere), and BLOW past it in a ZT260 with a standard 496 MAG. And you'll STILL have less money in the Checkmate. It's about the performance vs. the dollar. Baja does a nice job on their boats, but Checkmate wins in the "performance vs. dollar" catagory every time!
Alpha's on a 23' boat with 300H.P.? Why not? These boats are light guys. The alpha isn't under as much stress as you think. Look at how many older boats out there (Celebrity just to name one) that are heavy, and in the mid-late 80's were running the old carb 454Mag at 330H.P. with an Alpha behind it. I've seen several with over 500 hours on them with no problem at all. The Alpha is a perfect match for a lightweight 23' boat with a small block. It's small.....but it's also fast!
As for Checkmate as a company? Like BigRed said...give it time. Rome wasn't built in a day.

J
 
It seems as though most marinas use boatshows only to generate later sales not to make money at the show. Which is a shame because there are still some that send very knowledgable people and may never get a chance to show their stuff.
 
Well, if it ever gets to the point where there are Checkmates all over the place and at every boat show, I probably won’t be interested in them anymore. They would have to be either mass-produced or priced so ski-high that none of us would or could have one. And that’s not what I want. So I could care less if they are at boat shows, or in the jewelry wearing rich guy boat magazines….Just my opinion.

BTW, you don’t have to sell the baja – checkmate difference to me…..I was just throwing some numbers out there from what I’ve seen personally.

-Craig
 
The "small 350" that safetynut was referring to might have been the 260 hp 5.0 L v-8. I know there have been a few of those sold in ZT230s with alpha drives. I remember when I met with Bill Combs back when I picked up my ZT230 fom the factory. My Bravo drive hadn't been installed yet and when I raised the issue he said he wouldn't equip the ZT230 with 350 mag (300hp) with an alpha drive. Maybe the new management is. Whoever buys a ZT230 with an alpha drive has to know they are not likely to ever be upgrading to big block power without upgrading their drive as well.

I agree that it's great that the Mates are out to more shows. As for salepeople, well, I'm a firm believer that boats sell themselves and anyone willing to drop that kind of coin, or assume that much debt, is gonna do their independent homework, including searches on sites like this. When I was buying in the past, more than one dealer (of non-Mate boats) has saleguys that had started selling boats a week earlier. They didn't know squat, and it was easy to see that. That's why I'm always trying hard to quote correct gps speeds for the ZT230, because it can be very disappointing with any boat if the dealer, builder, or members of sites say the boat will run 70 when it actually runs 58!
 
Guess it all depends on how you define "compete." Checkmate's niche is and has been the smaller performance outboards. I don't anticipate seeing them putting out any 35'-40' Poker run boats with big money engines. But dollar for dollar they put out a fine product.
 
JY said:
The "small 350" that safetynut was referring to might have been the 260 hp 5.0 L v-8. I know there have been a few of those sold in ZT230s with alpha drives. I remember when I met with Bill Combs back when I picked up my ZT230 fom the factory. My Bravo drive hadn't been installed yet and when I raised the issue he said he wouldn't equip the ZT230 with 350 mag (300hp) with an alpha drive. Maybe the new management is. Whoever buys a ZT230 with an alpha drive has to know they are not likely to ever be upgrading to big block power without upgrading their drive as well.

I agree that it's great that the Mates are out to more shows. As for salepeople, well, I'm a firm believer that boats sell themselves and anyone willing to drop that kind of coin, or assume that much debt, is gonna do their independent homework, including searches on sites like this. When I was buying in the past, more than one dealer (of non-Mate boats) has saleguys that had started selling boats a week earlier. They didn't know squat, and it was easy to see that. That's why I'm always trying hard to quote correct gps speeds for the ZT230, because it can be very disappointing with any boat if the dealer, builder, or members of sites say the boat will run 70 when it actually runs 58!
Click to expand...


You would be surprised how many people buy boats and have no clue about bpats or boating in general.
 
"I'm sorry, but in my opinion you bring your "A" game to the boat show - or stay home."


I don't disagree with the rest of your comments, but I would still like them to show up at the shows - the big ones at least. Checkmate hasn't had any boats at the Toronto Boat Show for a number of years and it's a big show with a big attendance. If performance boat companies like Allison and Avenger can throw in a couple of boats (which they have for the past couple of years), I think Checkmate could too (and Hydrostream for that matter). Nothin' against white bowriders/fishin' boats/jet boats, but all the brands tend to look pretty much the same after a couple of hours at a show. Checkmate stands out in the crowd.

John
 
i have one at are dealership with the so called small 350 it puts out 300hp this year it is optional with a bravo over an alpha. alpha works ,

the boat runs a respectable 67mph no broke in yet eather and.

i dont really get were that isnt enough moter and yes you can go bigger but for the average guy that is a pretty nice package
 
I dunno about you guys, and I only own an old worn out smaller outboard checkmate, but I couldnt help it if wide opens post about the ZT260 blowing by another boat made my chest swell a little bit :cheers
 
Thanks teamhart! I've been around this business and the industry a long time and done alot of things within the business. One thing I'll always do is "tell it like it is". Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but my question to many opinions is...have you actually seen that happen/done, or done it yourself? If most doen't lie, I think you'll find their answer to be "no". If I tell you something about performance or speed etc., I've seen it or done it. Hence my favorite little phrase..."I know...I've seen me do it"! :)

J
 
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