ethonal in fuel

[ross]

this might sound a lil' crazy but just got off the phone w/ my dad and he has heard that most places are putting 10% ethonal in there fuel....... he heard that it can tear up your fuel lines becoause they are not rated for the alcohol........ anyone know about this? if so i guess i would have to replace my fuel line!!!!!!!

 

[175checkmate]

I have heard the same thing. In fact we just had a local station get pegged by the state for putting ethonal in all there gas to raise the RON (octain) level. They had to stop selling all there gas and have there tanks pumped out. Poor local owner as he just pumps what they send him. Dam gas should have been like .30 cents cheaper.

 

[ross]

is it true that the ethonal in the gas will mess w/ our fuel lines?

 

[daren34]

the way i understand it up to 20 percent will not damage fuel lines

it will however attract moisture

daren

 

[Big Red]

Ethanol has been at most places for a long time now at 10%. Most places I have seen its in the 87 octane. At a rate of 10% won't hurt you. Anyway the way I feel your getting 10% of crap in your gas no matter what they tell you. I mix the Lucas in with my gas I don't know if it helps but it makes me feel better.

Straight ethanol will give you 30% less gas mileage this is a fact that they fail to tell the public.

 

[powerstroker]

well with fuel prices that 10% is pretty expensive crap!

 

[jallen355]

the way i understand it up to 20 percent will not damage fuel lines

it will however attract moisture

daren

Alcohol "attracts" moisture???

 

[powerstroker]

One of the unfortunate properties of ethanol is its ability to attract and absorb water. Ethanol-enhanced gasoline can absorb roughly 10 times as much water as MTBE, a fuel additive now largely phased out, and still burn safely through the engine. But if ethanol becomes saturated, which can happen when it sits for long periods, the ethanol separates from the gasoline, forming two separate solutions. This is called phase separation and it's bad news for the engine. An engine won't run on the (water-soaked) ethanol solution, which sinks to the bottom of the tank and is highly corrosive.

There is no quick fix. Once phase separation occurs, additives and water separators can't help; the only remedy is to have gasoline/ethanol/water pumped from the tank.

 

[wca_tim]

One of the unfortunate properties of ethanol is its ability to attract and absorb water. Ethanol-enhanced gasoline can absorb roughly 10 times as much water as MTBE, a fuel additive now largely phased out, and still burn safely through the engine. But if ethanol becomes saturated, which can happen when it sits for long periods, the ethanol separates from the gasoline, forming two separate solutions. This is called phase separation and it's bad news for the engine. An engine won't run on the (water-soaked) ethanol solution, which sinks to the bottom of the tank and is highly corrosive.

There is no quick fix. Once phase separation occurs, additives and water separators can't help; the only remedy is to have gasoline/ethanol/water pumped from the tank.

Water is not very soluble in gasoline, the issue is that when water phase separates from gasoline (as in when the water present in the tank exceeds the water carrying capacity of the gasoline blend), when ethanol is present it will dissolve preferentially in the water layer. One of the main problems with slicge formation is actually when a tank of ethanol containing gasoline is added to a tank that contains both water and previous blends that inglide mtbe, in that mixture, the water rich phase is actually a gel.. (think about putting hair gel, that is not gasoiline soluble, in your fuel pick-ups, lines, etc...).

The situation is made worse by the fact that ethanol increases the solubility of water in the gasoline and so, as mentioned above, there is a greater chance that condensation and so forth will build up in the gas and create a problem. Fact of the matter is that many boats probably have some water at the bottom of the tank, and it doesn't create an immediate problem (until it gets up to the level of the fuel pick-up of course, or over time corrodes the tank). adding ethanol to a tank that is dirty or contains a lot of water an create a real problem. So if in an area where you're going to make a transition to ethanol containing fuel, empty and clean your tank out - especially if it has sat for a long time...

a final aside; ethanol in the water shouldn't significantly increase the ability of teh water to corrode the tank, but either is a lot more corrosive than clean gasoline - especially if the ph goes up. Sorry for the long winded explaination, it's somewhat of a pet pieve, and is often incorrectly explained in the popular media...

OH and fuel separators DO work... as would adding heet or something of that nature and then running the tank out... (not good to do and leave it in!).

Hope this is helpful...

 

[CHRIS G]

ETHANOL

WERE HAVING A LOAD OF PROBLEMS IN NEW YORK WITH THE ETHANOL,THE ETHANOL IS SITTING IN THE CARBS,LINES AND TANKS OVER THE WINTER AND ITS EATING EVERYTHING.IM DOING SOME SIDE WORK IN A MARINA,AND ALREADY THIS SEASON REPLACED A FUEL TANK,AND ANOTHER MECHANIC DID A FULL SET OF INJECTORS.HOWEVER THERE IS AN ADDITIVE YOU CAN ADD EVERYTIME YOU FILL UP OR WHEN YOU ARE STORING THE BOAT.
THE COMPANY THAT PUTS IT OUT IS STAR-BRITE.

THE BOTTLE READS AS FOLLOWS

STAR-BRITE
STAR-TRON
FUEL ENZYME TREATMENT

ITS AVALIBLE AT MOST MARINAS,MARINE SUPPLY STORES.I USE IT EVERY TIME I FUEL UP.....HOPE THIS HELPS!!!!!

 

[ezstriper]

the issues stated are very true, we are stuck with this fuel in our area due to the "law" and I have seen several carb issues, the stuff breaks down after sitting and looks like snot in the bowls after sitting, and corrsion is there as well, some larger older boats that have fiberglass fuel tanks are in trouble as the alcohol eats them up and thay have to be changed...our government strikes again !!

 

[winder]

We have had it in de for about 2 yrs plus. Garbage 5-10% less mileage on car and under load have pulled engine light lean condition. Older motors with the black fuel hose or the older gaskets will disolve. Startron helps and stabil has a blue one that is for ethonol fuel. We find changing the water filter helps. This was another fu by the government and children with asthma are having more problems. Down here in Fl we still get good gas but for how long? Rick

 

[wca_tim]

I realize that it creates problems for a number of things, but let's not forget that much of our oil comes from abroad and is a significant trade imbalance contributer. Ethanol is home grown, renewable, and keeps the dollars here at home. it is not the end all answer, but there are some definate positives to offset the negatives especially at current oil prices - which are not going to come down...

 

[twright55]

Ethanol costs MORE than traditional oil, and is subsidized by our government. THus it increases our taxes and increases our national debt. Guess who holds much of our debt? China and the Middle East countries.
It doesn't reduce our dependence on on these countries, it INCREASES our dependence on them, because now they literally OWN us.
We'd be better off just handing the corn farmers a big fat welfare check, because that is what we are really doing anyway.
THis ethanol thing is one huge scam. The sooner we find some other source to make us 'feel good', the better.

 

[wca_tim]

we're fast approaching the point where the value of ethanol as a fuel source exceeds the cost of its prduction.

the fact of the matter is that there are a number of other sources of power, energy and basic chemicals (everything you buy relies on oil at some point in it's production, the majority of the weight in your checkmate started out as crude oil...) that have been potentially competitive for years. They have not been developed because we as a nation have been lazy and have not been involved in taking a forward looking view of our nation's economic health. We've just wanted things as the cheapest prices possible and have not made ourselves aware enough to understand that the current gas situation and worse were inevitable... as individuals, we often blame the masses, but quite frankly, we are the masses.

 

[twright55]

we're fast approaching the point where the value of ethanol as a fuel source exceeds the cost of its prduction.

That may very well be true, but it does not change the fact that it take MORE energy to produce ethanol than can be extracted back out of it. That is a physical fact that no economic factors can change.
Now if they found a source of 'free' energy to produce the ethanol with (wind power, dam power, etc.), then maybe it could be a viable source of energy. But STILL only a supplemental one, because those 'free' sources can produce only so much ethanol...not nearly as much as we need.
A whole new energy source is needed.

 

[groucho]

Plus all of this "artificial" demand for ethanol has created a huge demand for corn. So that and other commodites ( as we all know) are going to roof in terms of price now. So we all get get stuck in so many different and several ways and have absolutely NO control over it.

From lousy fuel to high gas cost(s) and our grocery bills. It's a very frustrating time.

I think I'll take a boat ride to settle down!!

 

[wca_tim]

That may very well be true, but it does not change the fact that it take MORE energy to produce ethanol than can be extracted back out of it. That is a physical fact that no economic factors can change.
Now if they found a source of 'free' energy to produce the ethanol with (wind power, dam power, etc.), then maybe it could be a viable source of energy. But STILL only a supplemental one, because those 'free' sources can produce only so much ethanol...not nearly as much as we need.
A whole new energy source is needed.

all of the studies that come to the conclusion that it takes more energy to produce ethanol than can be recovered from it - badd in the energy supplied by the sun... confirming that you can't get something for nothing... and saying very little about the potential viability of ethanol as a potential fuel source...

I think th emore important point is that now that gas prices have reached such highs, we're finally motivated as a nation to develop real, long term alternatives...

 

[Wide Open]

wca tim and Powerstroker......very well said! We PREACH 87 octane fuel use to all of our customers because it will contain less ethanol than the higher octane fuels. As well, we PREACH to use fuel stabilizer ALL THE TIME! If you fill up fresh every weekend it's probably not necessary, but I've had a VERY reliable source tell me that phase seperation can/will occur as quick as 3 weeks from the time of REFINERY! That's scary.
Everybody's going to have their own opinions of what works and what doesn't. Here we use Johnson/Evinrude (go figure right?) 2+4 fuel conditioner, and find that it does a wonderful job. I know it's extra money in the tank on top of already astronomical fuel prices, but look at it this way........it's a hell of alot less than the one hour labor rate of most shops. Just food for thought!