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What type oil
- Thread starter theresa
- Start date
keith4216
Well-known member
Theres many very extensive threads on this issue. The problem is, the search engine used sucks on this site and others. Seems that trying to search any word less then 4 charactors is too small of a word to search. Hopefully you can find one of the threads and get to info to make an opinion for yourself because basically its a matter of opinion and choice as to what each chooses to use.
Problem Child
Well-known member
Oil types are a preference and most mild built marine big blocks run a straight 40w or even 50w due to most boats are run at a fairly warm temperature usually above 50 deg. I have always run Castrol 40w or Mobile 1 40 w. i have never used a synthetic in my boats because I change the oil every season and and put maybe the equivalent of 500 miles or so in a summer and it still looks new . I feel synthetic is overkill in this situation. I only run synthetic in my outdrive and when required for a warranty of my trucks. 
Pray-2-miss-logs
Member
there's always power to unlock, especially in an engine with that much power, by switching to high quality synthetic vs conventional. it might be a small percentage, but its there.
that being said, the reason for the power increase from the change is friction loss. if it were mine, it'd be synthetic, but conventional has its place.
that being said, the reason for the power increase from the change is friction loss. if it were mine, it'd be synthetic, but conventional has its place.
wired
Well-known member
There is no friction is an engine. Not really. Friction implies metal to metal contact and if there were friction the engine would be a pile of scrap in a few hundred miles. Oil rides between metal parts and prevents friction. In doing so the oil generates heat which can break the oil down and when the oil breaks down friction can occur.. Synthetics live longer in hot environments than conventional dyno oils and prevent friction longer. It allows for longer periods between oil changes. Synthetics also allow for lower viscosity oils to be used than normal so efficiency improves in short trips. If you are changing oil every year there is no benefit in a boat to using synthetic oil.
Pray-2-miss-logs
Member
no friction in and engine? how does friction imply metal to metal contact?
oil doesnt prevent friction, it minimizes it. there is friction between oil and the internal parts...it doesnt defy the laws of physics, generating a frictionless environment.
low quality oil doesnt reduce friction as well as high quality oil, whether the oil in question is conventional or synthetic.
synthetic oil is generally higher quality, and inherently designed to reduce friction better than conventional oil. again, the reason "high quality synthetic" increases hp on a dyno is it's increased ability to reduce friction between it and the internal metal parts.
theres benefit by running synthetic over conventional, but its up to the operator to decide whether the cost is worth the gains. higher hp engines magnify the benefits of synthetic vs conventional so that should be taken into account as well.
wired
Well-known member
Synthetic oil isnt higher quality. It has different characteristcs than dyno oil but that doesnt mean it is better or of higher quality . Quality is a marketing term and a buzzword. It' s just different. If you want to kill a high RPM 2 cycle steel sleeve motor use straight synthetic oil.
Where synthetics shine is in hydrostatic bearing motors is it its ability to float bearings at a lower viscosity . Thats where any power difference ( debatable ) on a dyno comes from. It also is better at higher temperatures than duyno oil and it lasts longer. In any case running it on a boat motor with more than adequate cooling that gets the oil changed the equivalent of every 1000 miles or less doesnt make much sense.
Where synthetics shine is in hydrostatic bearing motors is it its ability to float bearings at a lower viscosity . Thats where any power difference ( debatable ) on a dyno comes from. It also is better at higher temperatures than duyno oil and it lasts longer. In any case running it on a boat motor with more than adequate cooling that gets the oil changed the equivalent of every 1000 miles or less doesnt make much sense.
paulsboats
Well-known member
Synthetic cost more so it has to be better
kinda like beer bud vs becks
kinda like beer bud vs becks
Pray-2-miss-logs
Member
how exactly will synthetic kill a high rpm 2 cycle engine? synthetics have been widely used in the racing community for years. . . .10,000 + rpm outboards. companies designing and producing synthetics arent going to waste their time providing oil that will kill engines and cause liability issues (obviously a generalized statement, not to include human error) and i doubt anyone running high rpm 2 strokes are using supertech.
above you said synthetics arent better, but here you say they are better?
you must know, with your vast knowledge of oils, that synthetics require less viscosity modifiers (many synthetics require none to achieve their ratings) than conventional oils that are riddled with modifiers to achieve split ratings. as oil is stressed, it breaks down and no longer achieves its rating. i dont have to be a genius on the matter to figure this out, anyone can send their oil for competant analysis after their change interval to see what has happened. oil foaming is a problem in harsh conditions also, cheap oil is more prone to such results, and most synthetics are designed with that in mind.
all that said, you've made my point for me, but you left one thing out: marine oil operating temp. unless an oil cooler is utilized (most boats, especially "small", arent equipped with oil coolers), marine oil operation temp is much higher than automotive temps despite their unlimited supply of cooling with lower temp thermo, thanks to the high rpm and load associated with boats. conventional oils will break down faster than synthetics, especially given the extreme circumstances subjecting oil in marine applications during their operation. use whatever words you want, but "better" seems to be the "best" one to use as a generalization. as i said, it is up to the operator to decide whether or not its worth it to them to run synthetic, there are good conventional oils out there that can provide great service in most applications. is it best? no.
there are few poor quality synthetics, yet there are a myriad of poor quality conventionals out there. hence, synthetics are generally higher quality. i cant go to royal farms and buy a no name bottle of synthetic. . .
its not like we are talkin hundreds of dollars difference in oil each year either. quality conventional is almost as much as synthetic oil, and in some cases costs more (buying oil from a bogus source, or "special marine oil"). especailly if you change your oil once a season, the difference in price is moot, but synthetic will offer better protection.
wired
Well-known member
I'm a degreed and licensed mechanical engineer who's had quite a bit of training in lubrication engineering over the years and spends tens of thousands of dollars per year for lubricants in an industrial setting . Lets not assume I have no idea what I'm talking about. Synthetics have their place and I buy a lot of them. I wouldnt buy them for an inboard that gets changed frequently and I would never use them in a motor that wasnt designed for them within months of break in. The primary problem with inboards and 4 stroke outboards is that they hardly ever reach full operating temp and as a result the water vapor produced in combustion "produces" more oil. Its not uncommon for 4 stroke motors used in boats to have more "oil" at the end of the season than at the beginning.
As far as 2 cycle motors using synthetics. Go right ahead and run a steel sleeve 2 stroke 10,000 RPM with synthetic oil When it seizes up solid on you come back so I can say I told you so.
http://www.screamandfly.com/showthread.php?274851-pros-cons-steel-sleve-2-5-260
As far as 2 cycle motors using synthetics. Go right ahead and run a steel sleeve 2 stroke 10,000 RPM with synthetic oil When it seizes up solid on you come back so I can say I told you so.
http://www.screamandfly.com/showthread.php?274851-pros-cons-steel-sleve-2-5-260
Pray-2-miss-logs
Member
i wasnt assuming anything, and im not trying to be disrespectful, but i simply based my response off of thing things you said in your post (what else am i able to go by?). you were trying to have your cake and eat it too, saying synthetic is not better, yet it is. and engines dont have friction? friction implies metal to metal contact? these couldnt be further from reality and misleading to anyone reading the thread for info.
bottom line, the point i was making is that synthetic is better to run in a boat due to the extremities of conditions in which they operate. i.e. high oil temps and rpm for extended periods of time, in addition to the friction reduction characteristics of high quality synthetics helping with longevity, fuel econ, and power production. whether the operator wants to use synthetic is up to them, thats where opinion and individual circumstances come into play. surely i wasnt saying that no one should run a good conventional, they have their place as i've said.
this is comparing apples to oranges, and the guy asking the question wasnt asking about his 2 stroke. specifically why synthetic 2 stroke cannot be used in high rpm steel sleeve 2 strokes is what i was asking, not for you to tell me to go build one that will fail so i can come back and you can rub it in my face on the internet.
the reason (yet to be determined) that synthetic cant be run in high rpm steel sleeved 2 strokes has nothing to do with running synthetic in a 4 stroke, in which case good synthetic is superior to good conventional for the reasons i have listed, and so have you.
wired
Well-known member
Its still not superior. You keep using those word like"Better" and "Quality" and "Superior" like they mean something. They don't. Twisting words around. Yes, Synthetic oil is better in certain applications but not all of them. For the application at hand i.e. boat motors I do not believe it is better. Better at doing what? Lasting 8 seasons? Its not . Offers more protection? From what? Boat oil lasts ONE season and despite whether you want to believe it or not , most boat motors take a crap because they don't get hot enough. Not the other way around. If you don't change the oil in your boat every season you are negligent. Thats it. Synthetic oil lasts longer in higher heat environments and conducts heat marginally better and thats about . Otherwise all it does is increase maintenance costs with no real benefit. Show me a boat engine that has had regular maintenance done with dyno oil and one that has had regular maintenance done with synthetic and I or you could not tell which one was which from examinations of the internals. Regular maintenance means yearly oil changes and all that is going to do with a boat is increase the maintenance costs for no tangible benefit. I run the **** in my Honda 'cause Honda tells me to. I run the stuff in my race transmissions ( Mobile 1 , 0 weight engine oil ) because its a little bit better coolant and without the friction modifier it locks up faster than transmission fluid. I don't run it in my race motors because I want the rings to seat in zero miles and I don't want the seals to leak like a sieve. Mercury and the nations top 2 cycle engine dont advise it in my steel sleeve 2 cycle motor so I don't use it there.
Show me your lubrication Engineering credentials and I will believe some of what you are saying. Right now you just sound like an Amzoil salesman.
paulsboats
Well-known member
ive got some whale oil really good stuff
And I could keep an eye out for the highest quality urine for a pissing contest.ive got some whale oil really good stuff
Pray-2-miss-logs
Member
i'm not twisting words, and each time i've used "better", "high quality", and "superior" i've listed the reasons why, which you either dont understand or are purposely omitting. ever thought about a career change to politics?
the reasons i've listed never included anything about oil life and longer change intervals, so i dont understand why you keep referencing that. perhaps your reading and comprehension skills could have served you better while acquiring that fancy piece of paper on your wall, and you'd know that not only is there friction in an engine - but theres friction between oil and the metal.
i never thought i'd explain this to a "lubrication specialist", but stranger things have happened, so i'll say it again:
viscosity modifiers are used in multigrade engine oil, and oils with a wider viscosity index require more modification. these additives are susceptible to mechanical sheering from heat, contamination, and the "beating" that the oil inherently takes during operation. the greater the extremeties of heat, rate of introduction of contaminates, and operating conditions the faster the oil breaks down and cannot maintain its viscosity. this wont destroy an engine immediately, but it increases friction which will send any engine to the rebuild table faster.
all multigrade conventional oils have modifiers to achieve their index. in a boat, where oil temps skyrocket (even an overcooled engine will have high oil temps if it has no oil cooler), load is massive, and rpm is high the modifiers will sheer faster and wear will accelerate.
many synthetics require no such modifiers to achieve their ratings, and the ones that do, don't require as much. which one will provide the most protection? which one is higher quality? which one is better? ? ?
right, and none of this applies to anything i've said. modifiers begin to break down immediately, the length of time it takes for the oil to fail to achieve the required viscosity varies, and under the conditions of a boat it will happen much more rapidly than any other piston combustion engine. it only makes sense that synthetic provides better protection, but as i have said, is not required for a long life. modified engines that produce even more heat benefit more from synthetic than a low compression stock piece.
really? an amsoil salesman? this isnt rocket science, and anyone with the competence of an elementary grade student can understand this stuff. i am a mathematician, an engine builder, and a hobbyist of all kinds of ground-up builds of my own and others. ive dyno'd and tuned countless cars, rock crawlers, trucks, etc. believe it or not, i've even dyno'd several cars with conventional and synthetic back to back respectively, and synthetic always shows up on the dyno. but youre right, i need to get a fancy piece of paper related to the field of lubrication so i can rightfully inform everyone there is no friction in an engine, friction only occurs between metals, and "ool's ool".
you can have the last word mr wired, all i wanted to do was be informative, not to be treated like an oil salesman.